Snazzo, further more, those examples you listed happened in movies and in television. Therefore, they are not real, and not yet accomplished, and therefore, they are what we refer to as science FICTION.
And a human brain is so complex, so delicate, so wonderfully designed that I can hardly imagine anyone ever cracking it in the span of 700 years, the span of 7000 years, or the span of 7 million years.
How big is that computer? Probably a couple tons. The brain is, on average, three pounds. Three pounds! That is nano technology to the ultimate.
.:!Gwen!:.
WALL*E
Started by
Urvy
, Jun 27 2008 11:24 PM
59 replies to this topic
#41
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:32 AM
#42
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:39 AM
You're not butting in, Pig. You have the right to express your views just as much as Snazzo, Mara, or I do.
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#43
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 04:50 AM
Of course. ^_^
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#44
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:06 AM
Don't worry, I'm well in understanding only one being is capable of creating souls. Mere humans like us, regardless of brain power, could NEVER accomplish anything close to that feat. No being can, except for the one that created souls in the first place.
For me, I ONLY said emotions, computerized thoughts that could supposedly simulate emotions, that is the only thing I was pointing to. I'd never dare suggest humans creating the equivelent of a true SOUL.
For me, I ONLY said emotions, computerized thoughts that could supposedly simulate emotions, that is the only thing I was pointing to. I'd never dare suggest humans creating the equivelent of a true SOUL.
#45
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 05:08 AM
I agree, Neko.
Emotions are probably possible to simulate in a few hundred years.
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Emotions are probably possible to simulate in a few hundred years.
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#46
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:00 AM
Hi again!
-Well here it is, 2:40 in the morning, and I woke up early for work.
:blink:
-Whew, I hope I can make it through the day.
You Gwen you! I did say those samples were science fiction right at the start! But then said much science fiction is based on fact, and much has come true already.
-Arthur C. Clarke predicted geosynchronous communications satellites.
-(He's the same guy that dreamed up HAL.)
Jules Verne wrote about space travel and submarine voyages before they were possible.
Yes, I'll admit, sometimes science fiction gets it way wrong.
-I read a story where a man was attempting sabotage and he had a micro-nuclear bomb hidden under his tongue. I think we've since discovered you can't that small of an amount of weapons grade plutonium would only give you tongue cancer.
-Many old stories were big on atomics. Atomic run cars and helicopters.
-And one really whacky writer once had a machine that brought inanimate objects to life by "irritating them." You would, for example, put a shoe in the machine. It would bomb the shoe with irritation rays. Eventually the shoe would get so irritated, it would run away.
:blink:
Kindofa stretch.
Sure, a supercomputer may way tons now, but so do elephants and whales.
-And things are getting smaller and smaller all the time.
-Let's see, now I have some factoids I'd have to research to find out.
-But I think one of the first computers was called Eniac. It was monstrous, the size of a room, and full of vaccuum tubes.
-Who would think that kind of processing power would now be on your desktop? Or even stranger, in your cell phone?
-I once heard the computer that took man to the moon aboard the lunar lander had the processing power of one of the first home computers, the Commodore 64.
(Which I had and absolutely loved. What a great computer!)
One last thought, for now at least.
The argument keeps coming up that a computer may become so advanced it just thinks its alive, it's just programmed to think it has emotions, it just believes it has a soul.
-Here's something to consider, though it's really out there.
-THE SIMS is a best selling computer game. Little simulated people running around on your computer screen.
-Wouldn't it be weird and astounding if it turned out mankind was one vast simulated computer program?
-Maybe you think you're alive because you're programmed to think that way. Maybe you believe in God and believe you have a soul because that thought has been hard wired into your program.
-What about the brain, blood and tissue? Illusions. Your reality is based upon what you think you sense, what you seem to feel and see. Maybe you're just line after line of computer program running in some vast alien super computer in a world we haven't even imagined.
:blink:
And the alien looking at the holographic display of our antics is thinking "Wow, those weird guys on IDOJ are getting close to the truth!"
Just a thought!
Snazzo
:huh:
-Well here it is, 2:40 in the morning, and I woke up early for work.
:blink:
-Whew, I hope I can make it through the day.
You Gwen you! I did say those samples were science fiction right at the start! But then said much science fiction is based on fact, and much has come true already.
-Arthur C. Clarke predicted geosynchronous communications satellites.
-(He's the same guy that dreamed up HAL.)
Jules Verne wrote about space travel and submarine voyages before they were possible.
Yes, I'll admit, sometimes science fiction gets it way wrong.
-I read a story where a man was attempting sabotage and he had a micro-nuclear bomb hidden under his tongue. I think we've since discovered you can't that small of an amount of weapons grade plutonium would only give you tongue cancer.
-Many old stories were big on atomics. Atomic run cars and helicopters.
-And one really whacky writer once had a machine that brought inanimate objects to life by "irritating them." You would, for example, put a shoe in the machine. It would bomb the shoe with irritation rays. Eventually the shoe would get so irritated, it would run away.
:blink:
Kindofa stretch.
Sure, a supercomputer may way tons now, but so do elephants and whales.
-And things are getting smaller and smaller all the time.
-Let's see, now I have some factoids I'd have to research to find out.
-But I think one of the first computers was called Eniac. It was monstrous, the size of a room, and full of vaccuum tubes.
-Who would think that kind of processing power would now be on your desktop? Or even stranger, in your cell phone?
-I once heard the computer that took man to the moon aboard the lunar lander had the processing power of one of the first home computers, the Commodore 64.
(Which I had and absolutely loved. What a great computer!)
One last thought, for now at least.
The argument keeps coming up that a computer may become so advanced it just thinks its alive, it's just programmed to think it has emotions, it just believes it has a soul.
-Here's something to consider, though it's really out there.
-THE SIMS is a best selling computer game. Little simulated people running around on your computer screen.
-Wouldn't it be weird and astounding if it turned out mankind was one vast simulated computer program?
-Maybe you think you're alive because you're programmed to think that way. Maybe you believe in God and believe you have a soul because that thought has been hard wired into your program.
-What about the brain, blood and tissue? Illusions. Your reality is based upon what you think you sense, what you seem to feel and see. Maybe you're just line after line of computer program running in some vast alien super computer in a world we haven't even imagined.
:blink:
And the alien looking at the holographic display of our antics is thinking "Wow, those weird guys on IDOJ are getting close to the truth!"
Just a thought!
Snazzo
:huh:
#47
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:09 AM
Oh! And along those lines, I must mention one neato Star Trek bit.
In Star Trek: The Next Generation, they introduced the amazing Holodecks. The ultimate in Virtual Reality. Using holograms, powerful computers, and I would suspect simulated gravity, the Holodecks could create within a large room practically any environment imagineable.
-It was the ultimate recreation center. A baseball diamond. The Battle of Britain. A fishing hole. A Flash Gordon type fantasy, in black and white yet. A movie theater. A mud bath. ANYTHING!
To make things interesting in the series, it was always malfunctioning though. And chaos ensued!
One episode had Moriarty, Sherlock Holmes' arch enemy, become aware of his surroundings. Intelligent. He knew he was a hologram aboard a spaceship, and desired freedom.
-So Piccard and company tricked him and sent him into a powerful portable computer. Just a small box sitting on a desk with enough memory to have Moriaty explore wherever in the galaxy he wanted to, and maybe settle down on a planet to live out his life.
-(Cool! Galaxy in a box!)
But the point is Piccard ends the show by saying "Who knows? Perhaps OUR reality is just a small machine sitting on someone's desk somewhere."
:blink:
Interesting in two bits.
-One philosophical, like I mentioned in the last post.
-And two, funny! It IS a tv show, and their reality IS just a television sitting on a desk somewhere.
:lol:
Watch Star Trek! You'll learn LOADS of great stuff.
Snazzo
:huh:
In Star Trek: The Next Generation, they introduced the amazing Holodecks. The ultimate in Virtual Reality. Using holograms, powerful computers, and I would suspect simulated gravity, the Holodecks could create within a large room practically any environment imagineable.
-It was the ultimate recreation center. A baseball diamond. The Battle of Britain. A fishing hole. A Flash Gordon type fantasy, in black and white yet. A movie theater. A mud bath. ANYTHING!
To make things interesting in the series, it was always malfunctioning though. And chaos ensued!
One episode had Moriarty, Sherlock Holmes' arch enemy, become aware of his surroundings. Intelligent. He knew he was a hologram aboard a spaceship, and desired freedom.
-So Piccard and company tricked him and sent him into a powerful portable computer. Just a small box sitting on a desk with enough memory to have Moriaty explore wherever in the galaxy he wanted to, and maybe settle down on a planet to live out his life.
-(Cool! Galaxy in a box!)
But the point is Piccard ends the show by saying "Who knows? Perhaps OUR reality is just a small machine sitting on someone's desk somewhere."
:blink:
Interesting in two bits.
-One philosophical, like I mentioned in the last post.
-And two, funny! It IS a tv show, and their reality IS just a television sitting on a desk somewhere.
:lol:
Watch Star Trek! You'll learn LOADS of great stuff.
Snazzo
:huh:
#48
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Posted 09 July 2008 - 06:13 PM
No, Pig sounded better than Gwen. XD
Anyway.
You see, Snazzo, philosophies are relative. Without the way things worked now, you wouldn't have all these incomplete answers on how life is.
But something complete, that explains everything I want to know, is what I choose to believe in. Fortunately, I've found that in Christianity.
By my beliefs, God raised Adam out of the dust of the earth, forming skin, muscles, hair, blood, bones, and organs. He then took a rib from him and constructed Eve.
Now, I sure as heck don't understand how someone could physically build someone out of dirt, but he's God. I don't WANT to understand him.
We were programmed, intrinsically, by a higher being. But our thoughts are so complex, our structure is so intricate, there's no way anyone lower than the term "God" could have created us.
And there's only one God.
Besides the matter, why would this alien society build us streams and woods and animals? Why should they?
But therein lies another question. Why should God?
So the answer to your philosophical venure is this programming fiasco is simply God in a different perspective.
In perspective, he DID program us, and he IS watching us on a little box...compared to the vastness of himself.
.:!Gwen!:.
Anyway.
You see, Snazzo, philosophies are relative. Without the way things worked now, you wouldn't have all these incomplete answers on how life is.
But something complete, that explains everything I want to know, is what I choose to believe in. Fortunately, I've found that in Christianity.
By my beliefs, God raised Adam out of the dust of the earth, forming skin, muscles, hair, blood, bones, and organs. He then took a rib from him and constructed Eve.
Now, I sure as heck don't understand how someone could physically build someone out of dirt, but he's God. I don't WANT to understand him.
We were programmed, intrinsically, by a higher being. But our thoughts are so complex, our structure is so intricate, there's no way anyone lower than the term "God" could have created us.
And there's only one God.
Besides the matter, why would this alien society build us streams and woods and animals? Why should they?
But therein lies another question. Why should God?
So the answer to your philosophical venure is this programming fiasco is simply God in a different perspective.
In perspective, he DID program us, and he IS watching us on a little box...compared to the vastness of himself.
.:!Gwen!:.
#49
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Posted 10 July 2008 - 01:08 AM
Hi there!
Well stated Gwen! I must admit.
And I'll also admit it, I'm not too sure what to think about God, heaven, and souls myself.
-I am confident I shall return to earth, or remain on earth as a ghost though.
-(I believe in ghosts.)
Which adds to even more artificial intelligence fun and games.
-If a computer can simulate the human mind, if it has an artificial soul, and you turn it off ... Where does that mind and soul go?
-Maybe then we'd have computer ghosts walking about!
Well, it's a concept.
And along those same lines.
-If a computer simulates the human mind, and you believe in ESP, maybe a computer will develop telepathy, telekenisis, precognition.
-WOW!
And thinking about a computer discovering religion, who knows what it will decide is best? Maybe it will like Islam, or Judaism.
-Maybe it'll be an athiest computer.
-Or think of something all by itself.
-And if it holds it's beliefs to be true, Gwen, like you do - I don't think we can say the computer (or robot) is wrong. Not on matters of faith.
-At least that's what I think.
Piggles, don't be afraid to let your voice be heard!
-But I wasn't sure, you said I had scary thoughts.
-Which ones? That we're all simulations? That computers will think?
:blink:
But Piggles, you said we don't have to know.
-I think we DO need to know. Since the dawn of man (and woman), man has always asked why? Searched for answers and new and better ways to do things. We're born with curiousity, that's one of the things that makes us unique.
I think I'll point out that though I believe artificial intelligence will happen, I don't know if it'll be a good thing or not.
-Countless sci-fi tales think about what will happen. But we just don't know.
-(BTW, my fanfic Vox is moving in this direction!)
-What if a computer decides it needs a vacation, and shuts down the world's financial markets for a week?
-What if your robot grows bored with washing your dishes, and decided to learn to juggle with them?
-What if a computer starts spouting poetry? Is it malfunctioning? Or creating?
-What will happen to mankind when a robot reproduces, and has a baby robot? Yikes! Now there's a real Pandora's box.
Just more thoughts!
Snazzo
:huh:
P.S. - A robot that can reproduce is another sci-fi - real science theory.
-If you wanted to do a HUGE job, like pave the moon and turn it into a parking lot, you design a machine that duplicates itself while it works. So it paves a little, scoops up the moon dust, uses that as construction material, and out pops a second machine that will repeat the process. Soon you have a hundred or a thousand machines wandering about, paving and reproducing.
-What you do with them afterwards, I dunno.
Well stated Gwen! I must admit.
And I'll also admit it, I'm not too sure what to think about God, heaven, and souls myself.
-I am confident I shall return to earth, or remain on earth as a ghost though.
-(I believe in ghosts.)
Which adds to even more artificial intelligence fun and games.
-If a computer can simulate the human mind, if it has an artificial soul, and you turn it off ... Where does that mind and soul go?
-Maybe then we'd have computer ghosts walking about!
Well, it's a concept.
And along those same lines.
-If a computer simulates the human mind, and you believe in ESP, maybe a computer will develop telepathy, telekenisis, precognition.
-WOW!
And thinking about a computer discovering religion, who knows what it will decide is best? Maybe it will like Islam, or Judaism.
-Maybe it'll be an athiest computer.
-Or think of something all by itself.
-And if it holds it's beliefs to be true, Gwen, like you do - I don't think we can say the computer (or robot) is wrong. Not on matters of faith.
-At least that's what I think.
Piggles, don't be afraid to let your voice be heard!
-But I wasn't sure, you said I had scary thoughts.
-Which ones? That we're all simulations? That computers will think?
:blink:
But Piggles, you said we don't have to know.
-I think we DO need to know. Since the dawn of man (and woman), man has always asked why? Searched for answers and new and better ways to do things. We're born with curiousity, that's one of the things that makes us unique.
I think I'll point out that though I believe artificial intelligence will happen, I don't know if it'll be a good thing or not.
-Countless sci-fi tales think about what will happen. But we just don't know.
-(BTW, my fanfic Vox is moving in this direction!)
-What if a computer decides it needs a vacation, and shuts down the world's financial markets for a week?
-What if your robot grows bored with washing your dishes, and decided to learn to juggle with them?
-What if a computer starts spouting poetry? Is it malfunctioning? Or creating?
-What will happen to mankind when a robot reproduces, and has a baby robot? Yikes! Now there's a real Pandora's box.
Just more thoughts!
Snazzo
:huh:
P.S. - A robot that can reproduce is another sci-fi - real science theory.
-If you wanted to do a HUGE job, like pave the moon and turn it into a parking lot, you design a machine that duplicates itself while it works. So it paves a little, scoops up the moon dust, uses that as construction material, and out pops a second machine that will repeat the process. Soon you have a hundred or a thousand machines wandering about, paving and reproducing.
-What you do with them afterwards, I dunno.
#50
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Posted 10 July 2008 - 01:25 AM
Interesting concepts, I must admit.
Since I haven't finished my education yet, I feel unqualified to continue this conversation, but I suppose I might.
But you would want to stay on Earth, Snazzo? Wouldn't you rather go to a much much cleaner, safer, holy environment than this corrupted society?
I suppose it takes guts to believe in something like that.
But anyway.
I suppose that if we developed it enough, machinery could begin to process thoughts and actions on its own.
However, there are so many ways the Earth could end sometime soon, it's not entirely likely at all.
Further more, I believe that in proceeding to make life as ourselves, we are only sealing our fate.
You tell us all these science fiction stories of computers trying to destroy the human race. I think, in the long run, that's what they're going to do. Only bad can come from making another species. Like in the animal kingdom, they will fight for dominance, and, being highly advanced, will probably outdo us in the end.
Of course, do I believe this will actually come about?
No. Like I said, I believe the Earth will end way before this fate begins to unfold.
And as I stated before, it's an interesting concept, true enough. Only time will tell, I suppose, however.
.:!Gwen!:.
Since I haven't finished my education yet, I feel unqualified to continue this conversation, but I suppose I might.
But you would want to stay on Earth, Snazzo? Wouldn't you rather go to a much much cleaner, safer, holy environment than this corrupted society?
I suppose it takes guts to believe in something like that.
But anyway.
I suppose that if we developed it enough, machinery could begin to process thoughts and actions on its own.
However, there are so many ways the Earth could end sometime soon, it's not entirely likely at all.
Further more, I believe that in proceeding to make life as ourselves, we are only sealing our fate.
You tell us all these science fiction stories of computers trying to destroy the human race. I think, in the long run, that's what they're going to do. Only bad can come from making another species. Like in the animal kingdom, they will fight for dominance, and, being highly advanced, will probably outdo us in the end.
Of course, do I believe this will actually come about?
No. Like I said, I believe the Earth will end way before this fate begins to unfold.
And as I stated before, it's an interesting concept, true enough. Only time will tell, I suppose, however.
.:!Gwen!:.
#51
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Posted 10 July 2008 - 02:02 AM
Thanks Gwen! ^_^
I know I PMed you saying I didn't know what to say next, but I thought of something. :P
But as for saying your not educated enough, that I don't know.
-You're doing exceedingly well, I think. Thoughtful, passionate, and well reasoned. And not combative.
And I'm not too well educated myself, just rather well read.
-But as you noticed, a lot of science fiction. (And history and biography. Romance, not so much.)
And of course, the greatest minds on the planet think about this stuff too and they're undecided. From both sides.
-Be it philosophers and the Pope, to Stephen Hawkings and Issac Asimov.
-(Well, the Pope is probably quite decided.)
-(Then again, perhaps even he mulls things over in his bed at night, talking to God.)
About ghosts: I'll save that for another Topic. Or maybe search out a Halloween Topic I started a long time ago.
Snazzo
:huh:
I know I PMed you saying I didn't know what to say next, but I thought of something. :P
But as for saying your not educated enough, that I don't know.
-You're doing exceedingly well, I think. Thoughtful, passionate, and well reasoned. And not combative.
And I'm not too well educated myself, just rather well read.
-But as you noticed, a lot of science fiction. (And history and biography. Romance, not so much.)
And of course, the greatest minds on the planet think about this stuff too and they're undecided. From both sides.
-Be it philosophers and the Pope, to Stephen Hawkings and Issac Asimov.
-(Well, the Pope is probably quite decided.)
-(Then again, perhaps even he mulls things over in his bed at night, talking to God.)
About ghosts: I'll save that for another Topic. Or maybe search out a Halloween Topic I started a long time ago.
Snazzo
:huh:
#52
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Posted 10 July 2008 - 02:05 AM
That's true.
But I suppose we'll never know for sure until we've died.
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But I suppose we'll never know for sure until we've died.
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#53
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Posted 10 July 2008 - 02:48 AM
Well, I agree completely Pig.
Like I said, I don't WANT to have a God who I understand. We'd all be in deep doodoo.
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Like I said, I don't WANT to have a God who I understand. We'd all be in deep doodoo.
.:!Gwen!:.
#54
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Posted 12 July 2008 - 12:46 AM
Hi all!
Here's an article I pasted out of today's Chicago Tribune:
So? Eleven years from Chess to Texas Hold 'Em.
I like the story, but I didn't even KNOW there was a Computer Poker Research Group at the University of Alberta in Canada.
-What will they think of next?
SNAZZ*O
:huh:
Here's an article I pasted out of today's Chicago Tribune:
Computer edges out poker pros
July 11, 2008
By Robert S. Boyd
WASHINGTON — Human pride took a hit 11 years ago when IBM's Big Blue computer beat world chess champion Garry Kasparov. Now it's poker players' turn to be humiliated by a machine.
A computer system called Polaris outperformed some of the world's top players last weekend at a human-vs.-machine competition in Las Vegas.
The score was computer 3, humans 2, with one draw.
If you think it should be easier for a computer to win at poker than at the highly intellectual game of chess, think again. The human element makes poker a much more complex challenge.
"Poker is a completely different game," said computer scientist Michael Bowling, the leader of a Computer Poker Research Group at the University of Alberta in Canada.
"In chess or checkers, you have perfect information. There are no secrets on the board," Bowling said. "But in poker, you don't know the other person's cards. The basic computer techniques used in chess can't help you in poker."
The poker computer project may have practical applications beyond the card room. For example, Bowling said poker-like skills might be useful in bidding auctions where multiple companies are competing for government contracts or buyers are hunting online deals at eBay.
"There is a lot of uncertainty there," he said. "Should you wait or bid? The same things apply in poker."
So far, the system plays a relatively simple game of two-person Texas Hold 'em. The next goal is to take on games of three or more players.
"That's very challenging," Bowling said. "There is no perfect strategy to play against multiple players."
So? Eleven years from Chess to Texas Hold 'Em.
I like the story, but I didn't even KNOW there was a Computer Poker Research Group at the University of Alberta in Canada.
-What will they think of next?
SNAZZ*O
:huh:
#55
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Posted 13 July 2008 - 02:54 AM
Hiya Piggles and Gwen!
Ooo, I thought of another concept.
It's kind of artificial intelligence, and kind of ... IMMORTALITY!
One idea that's been proposed is that one day we'll have robots running around, and we'll be able to download OURSELVES into these perfect bodies. Bodies that will never die, never age, never lose their 20/20 vision, never need sleep, never grow tired - bodies that can only improve. (As technology improves.)
Synthetic immortality?
What do you think? Would you download youself into a robotic body knowing you could live thousands, perhaps millions of years?
-What would you DO with all that time?
-And would the soul download too?
Hm!
SNAZZ*O
:huh:
Ooo, I thought of another concept.
It's kind of artificial intelligence, and kind of ... IMMORTALITY!
One idea that's been proposed is that one day we'll have robots running around, and we'll be able to download OURSELVES into these perfect bodies. Bodies that will never die, never age, never lose their 20/20 vision, never need sleep, never grow tired - bodies that can only improve. (As technology improves.)
Synthetic immortality?
What do you think? Would you download youself into a robotic body knowing you could live thousands, perhaps millions of years?
-What would you DO with all that time?
-And would the soul download too?
Hm!
SNAZZ*O
:huh:
#56
RocksmySocks
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DJ was here.
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Posted 21 July 2008 - 05:58 PM
Wow! What a topic!
Now that I'm back from the middle of nowhere, I finally was able to see Wall*E (which I've been chomping at the bit to see for months now).
D'AWWWW!!! GREAT MOVIE!!!
I think it is now my second favorite Pixar movie (the first being Finding Nemo). I loved it all. Especially the Captain. He ROCKED. *cheers!*
As for the controversy...I believe that two robots could think they are in love. If they are programmed to problem solve, they are programmed for a type of "independent thought", and given enough where they are faced with a variety of different problems, they will build quite a base of "what to do now" ideas. Imitation is a huge factor in learning to problem solve, so between the imitation and the base of thoughts that are unique to one robot, I believe they could simulate emotions. In the movie, Wall*E and EVE were simulating the film with holding hands. Their other actions were very much based on a loyalty to one another, and if anyone has ever owned one of those robotic dogs, etc, they would know that we already can simulate loyalty in artificial intelligence.
As far as the "could robots have a soul" concept...I am not sure I could answer that with any certainty. My belief system does not really include a deity that consciously created life or directs our actions today, so I do not have the restrictions in believing something like "only things God creates can have a soul". For those of you that do have that belief, I completely understand why you would be arguing on the side of the debate you are arguing on. That makes perfect sense.
However, I sort of believe that life has developed a soul through time, much as a child develops a personality as it ages. As the world becomes more complex, so does the soul. A soul, to me, is an extension of a bigger, more encompassing soul. Sort of as if the universe is one large soul, and as the world became more complex, there developed lumps and wrinkles and pockets of the soul that represented individuals creating their own direction and inner spirits (aka personalities). Independent and yet connected. Therefore, to me, it would not surprise me if artificial intelligence, being, after all, created out of the same basic materials we are all made up of, could add itself to the complexity of the world and be infused with part of the grander soul. *shrugs*
It's a great philosophical question. It will never be able to be proved one way or another, but it is lots of fun to debate!
That's my two cents anyway.
What a great movie!
-Katie :ahoy:
Now that I'm back from the middle of nowhere, I finally was able to see Wall*E (which I've been chomping at the bit to see for months now).
D'AWWWW!!! GREAT MOVIE!!!
I think it is now my second favorite Pixar movie (the first being Finding Nemo). I loved it all. Especially the Captain. He ROCKED. *cheers!*
As for the controversy...I believe that two robots could think they are in love. If they are programmed to problem solve, they are programmed for a type of "independent thought", and given enough where they are faced with a variety of different problems, they will build quite a base of "what to do now" ideas. Imitation is a huge factor in learning to problem solve, so between the imitation and the base of thoughts that are unique to one robot, I believe they could simulate emotions. In the movie, Wall*E and EVE were simulating the film with holding hands. Their other actions were very much based on a loyalty to one another, and if anyone has ever owned one of those robotic dogs, etc, they would know that we already can simulate loyalty in artificial intelligence.
As far as the "could robots have a soul" concept...I am not sure I could answer that with any certainty. My belief system does not really include a deity that consciously created life or directs our actions today, so I do not have the restrictions in believing something like "only things God creates can have a soul". For those of you that do have that belief, I completely understand why you would be arguing on the side of the debate you are arguing on. That makes perfect sense.
However, I sort of believe that life has developed a soul through time, much as a child develops a personality as it ages. As the world becomes more complex, so does the soul. A soul, to me, is an extension of a bigger, more encompassing soul. Sort of as if the universe is one large soul, and as the world became more complex, there developed lumps and wrinkles and pockets of the soul that represented individuals creating their own direction and inner spirits (aka personalities). Independent and yet connected. Therefore, to me, it would not surprise me if artificial intelligence, being, after all, created out of the same basic materials we are all made up of, could add itself to the complexity of the world and be infused with part of the grander soul. *shrugs*
It's a great philosophical question. It will never be able to be proved one way or another, but it is lots of fun to debate!
That's my two cents anyway.
What a great movie!
-Katie :ahoy:
#57
Flank
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Nothing is ever so simple
Posted 26 July 2008 - 12:31 AM
OK, here are my few belated thoughts about it.
There could be fiction, a product of human mind and reality. Those are essentially different, in real life no magical unicorns.
Emotions, thoughts and simulation are also essentially different things.
A simulation is only a record, made by somebody and readable for someone else. A tape with word "I love you" does not have any emotions in itself. The same goes with all artificial intelligence.
Emotions and thoughts could be generated only by beings having an ability to make their own decisions and feel. A good question there - is a living being only chemical and electric processes in physical structures, or is it something more complicated - a soul? If living beings were created by matter and laws of this matter, then, sure, it is the first thing. I don't remember, if I told here why our Universe couldn't appear from nothing and evolve by itself, it contradicts science and philosophy. If the Universe was created by God, then souls must exist. The reason for it is that God needs our personalities to live with Him and to help to create. Therefor, there is no point in a death of a personality and people are created as immortal beings - souls. In order to function as an independent alive being, a soul is given an ability to make it's own decisions and feel. The first allows us to create, the second one drives us to live and to act. A soul is something more complicated than a matter of this world.
In this case it is completely impossible to replicate thoughts and emotions in a robot, it could be only a programmed simulation.
It's another question, but, there are some evidences that a human personality does not exist only in person's brain. Brain seems can't do all things that a person needs. Brain could be like a bus in a computer for a soul. But, this is an another interesting discussion.
Another example here, computers can generate relatively accidental numbers. But, since such thing as an accident does not exist, those accidental numbers always in essence are generated by complicated patterns. Computers don't really create and think and will never do it as humans do. I know this stuff a bit because I learned a bit about computers, it's kinda, my education.
Pig, Gwen, we can find after some time how and for what God created us. God wants that we grew intellectually, He wants us to participate in the life and creation process, there for He created us as alive beings. He enjoys when we learn and live. Even in this world we can understand quite interesting things about God and Creation. We just can't know Him in His entirety, He is Absolute. We just will always be getting to know Him better and that what our eternal lives will be. I think, this is the best life we could have, because, God is perfect and infinite.
Immortality is a very interesting thing, I had a great conversation on one forum about it. If we assume that our personality is electronic impulses and neuron connections in a mind, the it's theoretically possible to transfer a person in a computer. Then it should be called unlimited life, not immortality. But, technically, it's extremely hard to do. Both, and neuron connections must be transferred, and methods of computing information must be the same in a new mind, or it not gonna work. If there is a soul, we can easily assume that we can't play with it as we want and such transference would be impossible.
Though, when you mentioned nanorobots, there is one more way to get unlimited life, to repair and rebuild our existing bodies. Nanorobots can change and restore our cells, giving us much, much longer life. But, if it will be reaching immortality, opposing God's plan, it will get people once again into a trouble.
The last thing, Snazzo. Our world may be closer to a computer simulation than you think. Just not exactly in the way you think about it.
There could be fiction, a product of human mind and reality. Those are essentially different, in real life no magical unicorns.
Emotions, thoughts and simulation are also essentially different things.
A simulation is only a record, made by somebody and readable for someone else. A tape with word "I love you" does not have any emotions in itself. The same goes with all artificial intelligence.
Emotions and thoughts could be generated only by beings having an ability to make their own decisions and feel. A good question there - is a living being only chemical and electric processes in physical structures, or is it something more complicated - a soul? If living beings were created by matter and laws of this matter, then, sure, it is the first thing. I don't remember, if I told here why our Universe couldn't appear from nothing and evolve by itself, it contradicts science and philosophy. If the Universe was created by God, then souls must exist. The reason for it is that God needs our personalities to live with Him and to help to create. Therefor, there is no point in a death of a personality and people are created as immortal beings - souls. In order to function as an independent alive being, a soul is given an ability to make it's own decisions and feel. The first allows us to create, the second one drives us to live and to act. A soul is something more complicated than a matter of this world.
In this case it is completely impossible to replicate thoughts and emotions in a robot, it could be only a programmed simulation.
It's another question, but, there are some evidences that a human personality does not exist only in person's brain. Brain seems can't do all things that a person needs. Brain could be like a bus in a computer for a soul. But, this is an another interesting discussion.
Another example here, computers can generate relatively accidental numbers. But, since such thing as an accident does not exist, those accidental numbers always in essence are generated by complicated patterns. Computers don't really create and think and will never do it as humans do. I know this stuff a bit because I learned a bit about computers, it's kinda, my education.
Pig, Gwen, we can find after some time how and for what God created us. God wants that we grew intellectually, He wants us to participate in the life and creation process, there for He created us as alive beings. He enjoys when we learn and live. Even in this world we can understand quite interesting things about God and Creation. We just can't know Him in His entirety, He is Absolute. We just will always be getting to know Him better and that what our eternal lives will be. I think, this is the best life we could have, because, God is perfect and infinite.
Immortality is a very interesting thing, I had a great conversation on one forum about it. If we assume that our personality is electronic impulses and neuron connections in a mind, the it's theoretically possible to transfer a person in a computer. Then it should be called unlimited life, not immortality. But, technically, it's extremely hard to do. Both, and neuron connections must be transferred, and methods of computing information must be the same in a new mind, or it not gonna work. If there is a soul, we can easily assume that we can't play with it as we want and such transference would be impossible.
Though, when you mentioned nanorobots, there is one more way to get unlimited life, to repair and rebuild our existing bodies. Nanorobots can change and restore our cells, giving us much, much longer life. But, if it will be reaching immortality, opposing God's plan, it will get people once again into a trouble.
The last thing, Snazzo. Our world may be closer to a computer simulation than you think. Just not exactly in the way you think about it.
#58
John Richards
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I'm feeling strangely happy now, contented and serene
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Posted 12 July 2009 - 01:31 AM
And why exactly has noone considered the possibility that God came in and decided "Hey, it would be best if WALL-E had a soul" and then gave WALL-E a soul?
#59
JimmyxxCindy4EVER
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I'D forgive you, FJ... <3<3
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Posted 12 July 2009 - 01:47 AM
Yeah, it was cute. (Btw, Athena, could ya reply to yer aim thing already?? It's been a while...)
#60
CjIiNmDmYy
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Amigop
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Posted 02 August 2009 - 08:39 PM
Saw it. LOVED IT!!!!!! 
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